Martin Kelleher

Martin Kelleher set up his property business in Clonakilty over 20 years ago having previously worked with Lisney in Cork and SWS Services.

Martin Kelleher Property is a long time member of the Institute of Professional Auctioneers & Valuers. Based in Clonakilty town centre they have been selling and valuing West Cork property for the past 22 years. Their services are used by banks, Cork County Council, receivers, large employers and they have helped thousands of people with property related matters over the years. 

In this episode we speak about how a sports car sparked his interest in property, the pros and cons of being an independent operation, the importance of realistically portraying a property to its best potential along with the highs and lows of his job.

About this podcast

Date:        24/01/2023

Duration:  23:20 mins

Martin's Takeaway Tip

“Think long-term”

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Episode Transcript

Geraldine Hennessy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Cork Creative Podcast. With this podcast, we hope to shed light on the great work being done by local creatives and business people in Cork City and County. In Cork Creatives’ third series, we tackle the property market and speak with three local estate agents to get their opinion on their business, industry and the property market in Cork.

I am your host, Geraldine Hennessy from Flux Learning  and today, I chat to Martin from Martin Kelleher’s Property in Clonakilty. Martin set up his own property services business nearly 20 years ago. Having previously worked with Lisney in Cork and SWS property services, he worked hard to build up the business, and his reputation now speaks for itself.

In this episode, we speak about how a sports car sparked his interest in property, the pros and cons of been an independent operator, the importance of realistically portraying a property to its best potential [00:01:00] along with the highs and lows of his job. You’re very welcome to Cork Creative.

Martin Kelleher: Thank you Geraldine.Yeah, I’m delighted to be here.

Geraldine Hennessy: So tell us a little about how you got into being an estate agent.  

Martin Kelleher: I was thinking about this question and I remember I got, I went out to Australia years ago, Mm-hmm, after college didn’t work out for me and travelled around and I worked in this pub that an estate agent used to come into.Okay. And he had an E type Jaguar and he had the golf clubs and he had a mobile phone the size of a brick and is the first time I had ever seen one with a  mobile phone. I asked him what he did one day and he said he was an estate agent. So I said, Yeah. That’s for me when I go home now.

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah. You like the look at the car and the brick of a mobile phone.


Martin Kelleher: I have the mobile now and the clubs, but I, I’ve no , I’ve no nice cars or anything.

Geraldine Hennessy: All right. Look, you can still….that’s the goal, isn’t it? Yeah. We’ll see you whizz past there in a Ferrari or Lamborghini now or something .

 And what qualifications did you have to get to become an estate agent?

Martin Kelleher: At the [00:02:00] time, there was a course in Cork in the School of Commerce. Mm-hmm. It was a two year course and then there was a diploma for three years. So I did that and it was great. It was only going a couple years at the time. Mm-hmm , so I finished that in the late nineties, I suppose. And remember, I, I sent out about 26/ 27 CVS at that time, and I got I think, two responses there.

You know, so that, that, that’s kind of how it started. Now, you know, that was 20, 22 or 23 years ago.

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah. And did you work in various different estate agents before you set up yourself?

Martin Kelleher: I did. I, I, um, Twas Lisneys in Cork, Mm-hmm, where, I was there for a few years and that was a great experience. It was mainly commercial property. Mm-hmm.  So I came back to Clonakilty ‘cos we’d been living there. So I was with Sherry Fitz O’Neill here in Clonakilty. And then, uh, spending, uh, I went to S SWS group then after that, and I was there for about, I think nine years. Okay. Until we closed down there back, uh, back in the last [00:03:00] recession. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Geraldine Hennessy: And then you decided to …

Martin Kelleher: Yeah, I went out on my own in because, well at the time we were pretty much, you know, we were wound up. Mm-hmm. Really like, you know, we were, we were shut down. We had five offices in West Cork and so we went from being very busy to Yeah, just very quiet in a very short space of time. It was scary. So, look, I, there was no other choice really. Had a couple of mortgages, kids on the way. Yeah. So yeah. Went out on my own.

Geraldine Hennessy: Never looked back.

Martin Kelleher: Took a few years. Yeah. It took a few years. Yeah. A few very hard years. Mm-hmm. But the people of Clonakilty have been very good to me. Mm-hmm. Very supportive. So yeah. I’m eternally grateful.

Geraldine Hennessy: And given the strange nature, I suppose, of the property market, do you feel the pressure in how you market and communicate your services?

Martin Kelleher: It’s changed over the years. Like when I started first, we didn’t, you know, at the time there was no advertising on the internet or anything like that. Mm-hmm. I mean, when we started, we were sticking …we’d take photographs with an ordinary, a normal camera, and we would print them all out and hope that one of them was good enough to use.

Okay. And then you would [00:04:00] reproduce that photograph. Mm-hmm. And we would literally stick it on with pritt stick onto the brochures. That’s how that’s, that’s literally. And I remember when the internet came, remember at the time, one of the fellas said, working with me at the time, I said, look, will we put this on the internet?And he said, um, er, no, that’s, that’s kind of a bit fancy there . Oh gosh. This house wouldn’t attract those type of people at all. So how, how times of come on now, you know. Yeah. Yeah. To be honest, I don’t, I suppose in the fact that, you know, I’m kind of, I suppose luckily enough that I’ve, I’ve developed a healthy business here and I’ve a fair idea who’s looking at any one time.Mm-hmm. And you know, I, I utilize all of the websites. Mm-hmm,,,  our own website and they then feed loads of other websites, so mm-hmm, we’ve huge coverage, to be honest with you. Any property going up for sale, people will see it if they’re look…. any looking at all. Okay. Yeah.

Geraldine Hennessy: So speaking of and them, does the, the dominance of the communication channels for property by and restrict your opportunities to [00:05:00] market and communicate creatively, or do you feel it kind of enhances it?

Martin Kelleher: Well, I think I’ve thought about that. And let’s say if you, if you were in a franchise, I’m, I’m not a franchise, I’m an independent operator. If you’re in a franchise, there, there, there are probably certain restrictions, alright. Mm-hmm in how creative you can be to advertise a property listing. So I suppose to be fair, 90% of the inquiries originate from coming through one of the property portals. Okay. You know, I suppose , we would find that have a dominance all right. You know. are, you know, at the moment, probably a lot closer in Dublin, but in the country areas, its still for the most part.Mm-hmm. And then they charge very well then. Okay. As part of that, like, you know, so yeah, we’re always trying different ways. Like I find at the moment a lot of our rentals, I might just do it through Facebook. Okay. You know, And that seems to….because I have, I have a few thousand followers. Mm-hmm. on Facebook.They’re all many locals. So we find most of the rentals we [00:06:00] just do through that. Okay. Yeah.

Geraldine Hennessy: And do you think it’s a benefit to you that you’re kind of independent as opposed to being in a franchise?

Martin Kelleher: Look, there’s ups and downs first really, because this is such a localized business that to be fair, I, I’d be pretty much unknown outside of, we’ll say like my agency goes from Coutmacsherry, Timoleague, Clon, Enniskeane to Rosscarbery. Outside those areas, I’d be completely unknown, I would imagine. You know, so like that’s, let’s say if somebody had a, a really nice property listing, uh on the water , down in, on, down in Glengarriff, I, I, I wouldn’t be to the forefront of their mind when they are making a listing.

You know what I mean. So that’s where a franchise would actually come in. You know what I mean?

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah, yeah. But you are what you are, and you are doing it.  

Martin Kelleher: Aghh this is it,exactly. You, you still only have 10, 11 hours in your working day to, to make your living. Mm-hmm. And you still have to be able to service what you get.

Mm-hmm. I, I’ve seen it from the other side when, you know, in a previous life dealing with absolutely way too many things at any one time, and it’s very [00:07:00] hard to service that. So whatever you have, you have to be….and when I say service that, be proactive, you know. I mean, go out and actively trying to sell your house for, do the best job and get the most money for your client as possible, you know.

So that’s essentially our job. Okay. You know..

Geraldine Hennessy: Okay. Yeah .

And it’s apparent that they’re more 360 degree walkthroughs and drone footage of property. Is this the new benchmark for buying and selling property, and is it expected by buyers and sellers?

Martin Kelleher: Yeah. It, it, it, it, it is alright. But there are a lot of people not tuned into doing we’ll say, you know, doing a 360 walkthrough Mm.

You know, from their computer. Because to be fair, when you walk into houses a lot, a lot of it is by feel. Mm-hmm. So you know, straight away somebody who comes to one of our houses, technically it should tick pretty much all of their boxes, but they could turn around to you after walking through a few rooms in the house and just said, you know what, Martin, I’m not feeling it. Mm-hmm. You know, it just, you know, it should be for me, but I’m just not getting this. Mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s very much, you [00:08:00] know, by feel and emotion. So we do, obviously during the start, I, I’ve been doing drone footage for 6/7 years now. Okay. Which is fantastic. It gives you great idea of, from a buyer, buying perspective, what’s around the property.

Mm-hmm. You know, what’s in the surrounding countryside, it’s lovely. But 360’s I get a lot of negative feed, uh, feedback on 360s. Okay. And thats because you put a 360 camera into the middle of the room and you do the 360 tour, and when you actually come to the property as a buyer, they almost always say this looks way smaller than it did on the 360 tour.

Oh yeah. So I find the worst emotion a buyer could have walking out after your viewing is one of disappointment. Yeah. So, I I , if they go out feeling deflated, you know, you, they’re, they’re, they’re gone. Like, you know,

Geraldine Hennessy: So would you prefer to stay away from them?

Martin Kelleher: I suppose we get asked a lot because, a lot of our buyers now are coming internationally. You know, it used to be just the UK before. Now it’s people coming back from the Middle East, mm-hmm, having kind of made their living there. [00:09:00] And like, we have three different American buyers right now at the moment going through sales. And they’ll always ask you for a walkthrough. So I find that what’s acutally better than the 360s is a video walkthrough. Okay. So we try to do that for most of our listings where you’re literally, it’s like first person, you’re literally walking through the rooms. Yeah. And that tends to be, uh, that tends to be better. It’s more realistic. Yeah. More realistic perspective. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I suppose a lot we, we, we use professional photography in a lot of our listings too, as well. Houses that I would find difficult to photograph myself. Mm-hmm. Let’s say if they’re slightly larger or smaller houses or darker. So I tend to use, uh, professional photography and sometimes then sometimes the photographs can be actually too good. Again, I’m going back to the whole, um, disappointment that people might feel walking out of a listing, you know.

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s about managing, I suppose, people’s expectations. Making it as realistic to what it actually is, is, is important.

Martin Kelleher: It’s a fine line because, um, you’re, you’re, you’re trying to, you’re trying to keep your client happy as well. Yeah. But there’s no point. If your buyer is, is, is not gonna be [00:10:00]…. feels going out the door that, you know, they were almost duped, you know, early to come into the viewing, you know.

Geraldine Hennessy: yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that’s an actually an interesting perspective. I always kind of imagined or thought that you’d always just make it as good as possible, but. Yeah, you’re completely right. It’s, yeah, you don’t want them to feel disappointed cos they’re definitely not gonna buy the house. Absolutely.

Martin Kelleher: A number years ago when the Fish Lens came in first I used to use them and yeah., I soon stopped. Yeah. Because, you know, it was just ridiculous. You’re, you’re a box room. Someone was walking into a box room and they were saying, you know, okay, where’s the rest of the room? So, or actually I was with someone, say one time actually, um, at the end of the viewing say, would you mind actually showing me the house that’s on the photographs, please.

Geraldine Hennessy: Oh, gosh. Yeah. So that’s it. So yeah, you need to be realistic, but yeah, you need to make it look good, but be realistic. Yeah. What, this is it. Yeah. Very good.

Martin Kelleher: But ultimately, at the end of the day, we’re, I’m in sales. Yeah. So, you know, keeping my client happy is, is, is number one.

Geraldine Hennessy: Well, okay. Very good. Yeah.

Do you think that working from home and the growing trend of remote work is having an impact in West Cork and [00:11:00] then the types of homes that people are looking at?

Martin Kelleher: Yeah, it’s huge. No, I suppose again, from the, from, Covid really supercharged it, you know. Mm-hmm. Like it was. No, it’s one of the first questions we get asked, you know, if we don’t have it on the details, they will, someone, a prospective viewer will say to you, you know, look, what’s, do they have broadband there?

Do you know the speed. So, we wouldn’t dream of that before, but now, we have to. So I do a speed test now on actually all the houses I can, so as you can tell a prospective buyer, you know, what speed the internet has, but like as, as, uh, recently as probably three years ago, I lost a sale simply because there, there was no broadband facility in the house. Like yeah, they were too far down away from the exchange to have fixed line broadband.Rapid broadband didn’t have line of sight to the house. But it’s amazing that like in only three years now you have like, you’ve got Imagine now offering, uh, a service, an installation service, and they can, um, get you good broadband and of course Starlink.Mm-hmm, you know Elon Musk’s, Mm-hmm ,you know, but that’s [00:12:00] quite expensive then. But at least it is an alternativefor people, you know, if they’re working from, home workers, it’s huge.

Geraldine Hennessy: It’s amazing. So does broadband, it does impact on, on buyer decision and, and value of property and saleability of houses, wouldn’t you say?

Martin Kelleher: Not, not so much value because anyone who really needs to to work from home might not consider a house to, without really good broadband, you know. But to be fair, it’s coming less and less. Most houses have some option, you know what I mean. And, and the last couple of years really, you know, it’s less of a problem than it was we’d say three or four years ago. Yeah. You know.

Geraldine Hennessy: And I suppose too now with hybrid working or you know, with hubs and all that, it helps people out maybe a little bit if

Martin Kelleher: Oh yeah. Like, like we find that, um, people who wouldn’t have considered traveling to Clonakilty before if they’re working even in Cork City mm-hmm. Now, because seeing they only have to maybe go up and down maybe three days a week or four days a week. They will now go out as far as Clonakilty or Rosscarbery even, you know? Mm-hmm. Whereas before the, I, I used to find the people go up and down five days a week, they would say, look, we might consider going as far as the east [00:13:00] side of Clon. Mm-hmm. Whereas now the, you know, to be fair that, that, you know, this, this, there is very little limit really, like, you know,

Geraldine Hennessy: And has that broadened your client base or,

Martin Kelleher: Yeah, completely. Absolutely. It has, but, but obviously naturally enough what it has done as, as well, it’s driven the values up in this area. Mm-hmm. You know. Mm-hmm. Because , jeez, the average house now in Clonakilty is €299,000 is what’s the average sales transaction price.  You know, four years ago, that was probably €230,000. Yeah. That big increase. Yeah. You know, €236,000 I think at time. But now we’ve got people coming out  they’re on, I suppose, better paid jobs and, and, and then people may be selling up into like Dublin, mm-hmm, areas of higher equity, and they can take lesser paid jobs actually, Mm-hmm and more, and concentrate on more quality of life mm-hmm which you get around here, you know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it’s very interesting actually, if you ask people, uh, you know, if you talk to people long enough on, on the viewings and all that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s very fascinating, really, their thought process.

Geraldine Hennessy: Do you get a lot of feedback from your clients or, you know, to try and maybe help you going [00:14:00] forward on how you’re marketing or would you use that kind of feedback or,

Martin Kelleher: yeah, I suppose being Irish, a lot of people wouldn’t, you know, they might, they mightn’t give you the honest, honest feedback, I suppose.

You know sometimes you mightn’t wanna hear the, as I said, the truth hurts sometimes. But to, to be fair, most people would. Most people don’t, aren’t afraid of, of pulling you up now. Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. So I suppose a lot of time. Someone said to me there lately, she said, look, I, I, I, you know, I’m delighted to pay for , having paid for your counselling services, you know,

So there’s a lot of that know Yeah,

Geraldine Hennessy: yeah, yeah. Part of the job.  

Martin Kelleher: Completely. Yeah. That’s, it’s good part of the job too.

Geraldine Hennessy: And what’s your favourite part of what you do?

Martin Kelleher: I suppose I, I just love being on the viewings, you know. Mm-hmm. And having, you know, five, six viewings lined up on a house, people coming in and you have to have kind of a bit of fun on it too as well, you know.  And it’s great cuz you,a lot of times you might meet the same people at different houses, you know? have great stories over the years. Like, so. Yeah. It’s that part. Meeting people, I suppose [00:15:00] in, in, in our job you have to really like people really mm-hmm and be interested in them. Mm-hmm.

you know, the name retention is the part I struggle a lot with, you know, meeting people and, and that part of it is tough. Alright. You know. I met someone in the leisure center last night and they started talking way about a house and had I any news for them. Like, and I, I, you know, I actually just didn’t know who they were, you know?

I mean, I, I knew I knew them, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t piece it together. It’s meet someone out of  context.

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah. When they’re half naked-not their usual apparel on them. This is the issue. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I’d be a bit like that now, whereas I know their face,right, just like what’s their name? And it would drive me, you know, I would be like, oh my God, what is their name?

And then it would come to me probably on the drive home. Oh, that’s right. Anyway, I remember the name now. You know. Yeah. And I find that really frustrating. And it’s just when you’re kind, it’s like a rabbit in the headlights kind of moment. Especially if they call you by your name

Martin Kelleher: Yes. It’s very hard actually.

It’s kind of funny, but, but I, I find you [00:16:00] to kind of, I suppose, try to develop the conversation as far as you can. Yeah. And just talk about generic stuff like the weather and stuff like that. And often somebody will just drop something in

Geraldine Hennessy: That, that little bit of information that will help to click.

Yeah. Who they’re, yeah.

Martin Kelleher: Somebody, actually in, in our own business actually told me one time, actually, you should just say I’m sorry, now, would you mind me telling you your name, please? And then they might say, John, and then say, oh yeah. John, but what’s your surname?

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah. That’s a good one. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good one.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And given the increased technical nature of your work, do you feel having good digital skills is a prerequisite for being an estate agent?

Martin Kelleher: We do continuous professional development, now, actually, mm-hmm, in, in our, in our business. So my valuation accreditation, I, I, I sign up for 20 hours a year, so you have to do,you know, continuous online learning and a lot of that might be just changes in legislation or, you know, new grants coming out. Especially in the rental market. It’s hugely changed over the years. Yeah. A lot of, [00:17:00] you know, a lot of, an awful lot of red tape in it, you know, as you can imagine naturally enough, you hear a lot of landlords leaving, unfortunately leaving the rental market mm-hmm. They’re, they’ve been swamped, you know, so I constantly, I suppose, trying to read up on our own line of work, you know.

But just on the, you know, as regards digital skills. Yeah. I suppose when you’re, when you’re like me, like this, I, I’m, I’m lucky I’ve got good  members of staff with me, you know Mm-hmm we’re very strong that way as well.

But if you are, you know, we’re a small operation, so you tend to be, try to be multi-experienced and, and in digital -new ways of trying to show off your house, you know.

Geraldine Hennessy: . Yeah,  yeah, yeah, yeah. That CPD that you do. Is it interesting stuff or is it : actually boring?

Martin Kelleher: Let’s say probably over half it is, is very interesting, you know. Yeah. And then you, then you’d have a lot, uh, that mightn’t actually have anything to do with you anymore. Yeah. Yeah. You might be, might have CPD about Industrial properties in Dublin, or the rating system in Ireland, or, you know, like, like that. I suppose IPAV, the institute I’m affiliated with, they’re brilliant, but they, they obviously have a broad spectrum of members, you know.Mm-hmm. So they’re trying to [00:18:00] obviously keep it, um, interesting for theirs as well. You know,

Geraldine Hennessy: I suppose the more boring stuff is the stuff that’s not really relevant.

Martin Kelleher: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I suppose, now, actually we, we can sign up for different courses actually as well that some suit you more than others.Okay. You know, this is a great choice there. Big Change.

Geraldine Hennessy: Very good. And if you had any tip to give to someone following a similar career path, what would it be?

Martin Kelleher: Just obviously education, you know, you have to do, you have to do the courses now. And there’s an, there’s a fantastic apprentice scheme now as well for auctioneering, whereby you, you do four days a week, mm-hmm, with the agent or who you’re doing the apprenticeship with. And one day in college and obviously there’s online learning and that, and that’s for two years. So they’re getting paid, you know, a reasonable, I suppose, a reasonable wage Mm. While they’re getting trained. Okay. And that’s a wonderful way of, of seeing it hands-on.

Mm-hmm.  To see if you like it. And, but you know, what I would say to people starting out is, is, is to think long term, you know, because I suppose in this, especially when you’re working in a, a smaller [00:19:00] area with towns and that takes years, years and years to develop your name, like, you know, and you could lose it so fast.

So everything has to be long term, you know, and you’re, I suppose you’re constantly challenged in your working week to, I suppose, appease other people. So your, your client is number one. You have to keep them happy, uh, within, you know, working within the, you know, try to keep your own integrity. Mm-hmm.

Because you, you have only your name really, and you don’t get it perfect all the time. But if you, if you, I say, if you, if you keep going straight, being straight all the time, straight, straight with people that you won’t go far wrong. Yeah. So, yeah, that’s it really. That’s, that’s probably the best thing, really.

Mm-hmm. is to think long term and don’t ever let one transaction, don’t ever take a shortcut in one transaction that might derail your career. Yeah, yeah,

Geraldine Hennessy: yeah. You know, you have to think long term, so, yeah. Okay. Very good.

So where do you think the market will go or where will it be in a year’s time, say, or two years’?

Martin Kelleher: So I suppose one thing what I’ve learned over the, the last few years is [00:20:00] probably, well, especially going back to the, the time, I would say the, the recession and the boom back in 2005, 2006, is that I don’t make predictions anymore. I’ve tried and I’ve been wrong so many times, , uh, and it’s, it’s cost me personally, yeah.

But I. Where we are now, we’ve a serious housing crisis. Mm-hmm. And there’s just not enough houses. We’re only building not even 30,000 houses a year as a country. Mm-hmm. Like back in 2005, we were building 80,000 houses. Yeah. On a regular basis, you know what I mean? And in that peak, that’s a hundred thousand houses back in 2007.

We’re nowhere near that, you know. And I can’t see that improving much in the near few years. So whatever happens about people’s affordability or mortgages, Which, which, you know, that’s kind of worrying as well. Of course. What’s, what is definite is that there just won’t be enough houses. Like we have something like approaching 1 million extra people living in Ireland now than what we had at the start [00:21:00] of the last recession.

Gosh, yeah. Like there’s actually 950,000 house, uh, people I believe extra now living in Ireland now, and just not enough houses. And we have just stock every year, just just thousands of houses going past their life, like, you know, dereliction . Mm-hmm. So that’s the worrying side of it around here. I, I like, you know, I know that there’s a lot of talk about property values dropping. I haven’t seen it. Mm-hmm.You know. Mm-hmm. Any property that’s presented well in a good location and that you don’t have to whole pile, will absolutely fly. Mm-hmm. At the moment still. Mm-hmm. The only houses we, we struggle with are houses that need a lot of work. Mm-hmm. And that’s because I suppose I find at the moment there’s a fierce fear factor there of how much it would cost to actually to up a property now as well too, between materials and access to trades and that.

So I don’t see a whole pile of change. And unfortunately, I mean, it’d be great to see more rental properties available that is a heart-breaking part of our job. Or, you know, every day. There’s calls, people coming down to the office, phoning up, telling you [00:22:00] how, how bad things are and how badly they need an a, a new place to live or they are in non suitable accommodation.

And you’d have to have a heart stone not to, if that doesn’t take something away from you every day. Mm-hmm.

Geraldine Hennessy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s the hard part of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s good and bad with every job, I suppose, but  

Martin Kelleher: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Geraldine Hennessy: This time of year, it’s difficult.

Martin Kelleher: It’s actually one of the nicest parts, you know, you asked me before, what’s the nice part of the job. And, you know, on viewing. Is that actually a, a great one I found in recent years is actually getting someone, even a rental property, getting a family in, you know, and seeing how genuine or just the sheer relief ,mm-hmm, of having a, a roof over their heads, you know, when it shouldn’t be that way at all. Yeah. Like, you know, it should be easier access to housing.

Geraldine Hennessy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks very much, Martin for joining us on the Cork Creative Podcast. If you want to find out more about Martin and what he does, you can find links to social media and website on Cork creative.[00:23:00]