[00:00:00] Michelle O’Mahony: I would love to kind of just be involved in setting up one of these international museums for based on personalities and their contribution. You have those international flags flying outside an international museum, you will draw tourists.

[00:00:21] Patrick Kiely: Welcome to this episode of the Cork Creative Podcast. Today I am speaking with Michelle Mahany, a history consultant based right here in West Cork. Michelle will be sharing insights into her varied work from delving at the historical research, especially into the Irish famine and its far reaching consequences to organizing historical and heritage events.

She’ll also discuss her involvement in remembering the Earl Grey scheme, which sent young famine orphans to Australia and her upcoming plans for an event and monument in Dun Manway. Michelle will emphasize why it’s so important to make history accessible and engaging for everyone, and she’ll touch on how her background in both history and event management have shaped her career.

We’ll also hear about the challenges and rewards of historical research and the exciting possibilities for growing history and heritage tourism in West Cork. So you’re very welcome to Cork Creative. Michelle. Thanks for taking time out of your very hectic schedule to join us for this podcast.

[00:01:16] Michelle O’Mahony: Thank you very much Patrick.

Delighted to be with you and Cork Creative. And hello to the audience.

[00:01:22] Patrick Kiely: So I mentioned at the start of the podcast that you’re very busy at the moment. Give us a breakdown of what the last two weeks have looked like for you and what you’re planning for the next couple of months.

[00:01:30] Michelle O’Mahony: Oh, well the last two weeks, Patrick, have been incredibly busy.

I’ve been doing a lot of audio visual work, lot of podcasts. I’ve worked with the Sacred Heart Secondary School and their podcast there a few weeks ago, and it was lovely to get back in the classroom again, having a previous life a little bit. As a teacher of English and history, it was lovely to speak with the children about what history means to them and also to let them know what I do. A history consultant wasn’t something they readily knew or had heard about, so it was great to go down different avenues and explore different ideas and concepts with them. I also had to do a webinar with the American Irish History Society and Fifth Avenue in New York recently where I discussed the innocence and the children of the workout system during the great famine.

Put a case study on Cork City, and that was one particular chapter of my book, feminine Cork City that I published a number of years ago and recently a second edition in 2023. I’m currently preparing for another webinar for my kinfolk, I suppose with the O’Mahony Society in early May. And also then that led to radio interviews with Ireland Radio Canada.

And I have a few more items like that lined up in coming weeks. And I suppose the big event for Dun Manu and for myself would be a sort of homecoming for the descent, some of the descendants of the Irish famine orphan girls who left on Manway during the famine years as part of the Earl Grey assisted immigration scheme in 1849.

To 1850 and welcoming their descendants back to Dunmanway, showing them their home place. And we’re going to have a wonderful day, and there’s been a lot of research around this topic in recent years down in Australia, but very little in Ireland. So I’ve been delving into that and I’m taking a major deep dive into looking at those 14 girls from Dunmanway who immigrated and.

I suppose looking at their contribution to Australian society and how they helped to address the gender imbalance down in Australia at the time. And we’re going to have an unusual heritage monument commemorating that event plus interpretive signage all within the confines of the workhouse rooms in Dunmanway.

So a lot going on for the last few weeks and a lot more to come in the coming four to six weeks.

[00:03:53] Patrick Kiely: Certainly a lot of strands and threads for us to pull on over the course of this podcast interview for sure.

[00:03:58] Michelle O’Mahony: Oh, there, there’s many different avenues. I suppose as a history consultant, people ask me, what do I do?

And that can go down many different avenues. It’s many different services for many different people, for organizations, for professionals, everything from solicitors to estate agents, down to a descendant, just returning to West Cork and trying to figure out where they came from and to almost assert their own sense of identity.

And where that community was based from, where their ancestors came from. So lots of different angles in my work and no two days are the same. Sure.

[00:04:32] Patrick Kiely: And I suppose let’s start at the beginning and where it all began and your undergraduate career in University College Cork, and how that has informed all that you do now.

[00:04:42] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, I suppose a lot of my basis came from my undergraduate degree where I studied under Professor Joe Lee and I. I suppose the first thesis he asked us to produce was pick a topic and I picked the Irish famine. And at the time Joe was, I suppose his book. Was in the fore

[00:05:02] Patrick Kiely: Seminal would be the word.

[00:05:03] Michelle O’Mahony: Yeah, we

say it. Yeah. So Joe’a semial tomb of work was in the fore at the time, and he also was in the Senate. So for those couple of years I worked closely with him as an undergraduate, and then I qualified after my thesis on the work house. I went off, I did the higher dip in education. But I wasn’t content to let that settle.

I wanted to go back and explore more about the famine period and workhouses in particular. A lot of people like to write about the politicization of the famine, whereas I like to look at the actual experience of the famine victims. So it was great to actually go and take another deep dive into life of an inmate in a workhouse, and that’s been, I suppose, one of my central areas that I focus on in terms of research of the great Irish famine.

What happened within the confines of these institutions, how they were run almost akin to a penal settlement. And a penal colony. And if the walls could talk, would be one of the, I suppose, stock lectures that I give to various groups and various historical societies. Life foot in the walls or behind the walls more or less is one of the main things that I would give talks about.

And then. Working under Professor Lee and the his other colleagues in the history department. I, as an undergraduate, was highly involved in organization of conferences where I would beat a lot of high profile dignitaries, politicians, and people in the news. So I was given that opportunity to sit down with these people almost to interview them.

Have dinner with them. And then the flip side was you were exposed to all elements of conference, organization, almost event management, and you liaise closely with the individuals within the history department and UCC as to how these events took place and how they unfolded. So that then gave me, I suppose, a good footing in event management and to do with heritage events in particular. So that’s another niche that I explore with my consultancy. Everything from if you have a book launch everything, if you need a little bit of mentoring, a little bit of coaching, if you’re writing a book right down to having a history and a heritage event.

And it doesn’t necessarily have to be history or heritage. It can be just any event in West Cork that you feel you would need assistance on, be it with communications. With research, even just to gather some speakers. I would have a wide network of colleagues and friends right around Ireland and internationally to get different speakers and different topics of history and heritage, if that’s what somebody wanted.

So that’s another area to my portfolio as well.

[00:07:35] Patrick Kiely: You could argue, I suppose, that your, the undergraduate career in UCC and what you made of your undergraduate career of UCC was almost like an opportunity engine and it provided you with the opportunity to develop skills that informed all the niches that you’re working in now.

[00:07:48] Michelle O’Mahony: Oh, completely. I suppose I also was head tutor for the history department, so that gave me time play tabling experience. It gave me logistics. It also allowed me to use my teaching qualification that I had got a couple of years earlier. I was tutoring a lot, but I was also correcting exam scripts. I was working closely as I say with Professor Lee at the time he was in the Senate, so it also got me over the fear of large crowds.

For those of you that went to UCC pool fours, not the smallest of theatres to deliver lectures in. So in his absence or if he was away, I would get the notes and I’d be told to deliver my talk. And you had nothing better to do some mornings than face four or five hundred students and get over the nerves pretty quickly.

So that stood me in good stead since. So, public speaking is not something that I necessarily relish, but it’s not something that I’m afraid of. You know, it’s one of those things, you either love it or hate it. I don’t mind. It is a simple answer to it.

[00:08:43] Patrick Kiely: You’ve highly evolved coping mechanisms.

[00:08:44] Michelle O’Mahony: Yes. So, you know, if you’re thrown in at the deep end, once or twice you do learn how to cope, you know, so, so yeah.

So that early years in UCC and I suppose in total, I spent eight years there with the history department, so. That really kind of gave me the good foundations to build upon going forward. And then in the last number of years, then I’ve set up that consultancy business because I knew history is where I wanted to work at.

And there’s not many consultants in Ireland that do what I do. So I’m kind of unique in that there is a few and they tend to stick with more literature and writing books, whereas I’m offering services to various professionals where you wouldn’t necessarily think that history and heritage would overlap in their careers.

[00:09:25] Patrick Kiely: So I suppose the historical skills, the research skills, and also the transversal skills in terms of event management and logistics that you picked up in U CCC of what you brought to OM history consultant and what informs the diversity of the offering that you have there with your company now as well.

[00:09:39] Michelle O’Mahony: So the skills there would be critical thinking, the ability to assess information, the ability to bring the salient points across that your audience wants to know, and also to make it accessible for the general public and people who would have. Would be not the professional historian who wouldn’t know the full background to a story, would need to know the key events to make it more understandable and relatable, even in a modern day context.

So I do a lot of heritage signage for our people and for our history groups including one that will be unveiled into manway on in May the 24th as part of the famine orphan scheme. And those signs, you know, they take a little bit of time to put them together becauseyou have to do the research, but then you have to figure out what exactly is the key point and what sort of images you would like to portray on the signage.

Because it is interpretive, it’s how somebody interprets it and it’s to bring the key points across people. Those skills are not just involved in heritage, they’re involved in any research that I would undertake for any client, even if it’s for, sometimes I get requests from engineers, I get requests from architects.

There might be a rule, not a premises that somebody’s trying to go for planning with. They need to understand the background, the context. Is it? Is it? Was it used as an agricultural outbuilding? Was it a farm shed? Was it a dwelling house? Who lived there? If it was a dwelling house, can we prove people live there?

How far back can we go? All of these questions come into play for various professionals in various walks of life, and that’s where I get called in then to offer my services to people. So it’s largely a set of bespoke services to cater for individual needs where people might necessarily think. A historian might be the answer to that query.

But more and more I’ve talked to a number of people in the auctioneering business to engineers, architects and those services are actually, there is a market for them.

[00:11:42] Patrick Kiely: Sure.

[00:11:42] Michelle O’Mahony: And I, no two days are the same, because you could be doing everything from simple research to a sign. To putting on the wellies, going out into the middle of a field and looking at some rooms which is great.

You know, you have all sides. You have the good day in the office and you have the onsite field trip as well. Sure.

[00:12:01] Patrick Kiely: No indeed. So armed with that diversity of skillset with OM history consultant, if we want to pull on the thread of event management, shall we say. So building on the experience you had at running conferences in UCC, what’s your experience of running conferences in West Cork?

How is West Cork set up for large events and do you manage events in West Cork or more widely in Ireland?

[00:12:23] Michelle O’Mahony: Okay, so I suppose my time as I said in UCC, I would have been involved in the background more or less, but watching everything, meeting people understanding what was going on, watching the dynamics, watching the organization and understanding that you really do need to be very precise and have a very tight ship in making sure that events run according to plan.

And one of my things that I often say to my clients is that as long as. The general public don’t see a mistake. I don’t mind if I’ve seen the mistake and I’ve hidden it and nobody knows it other than me, that’s perfectly fine.

[00:12:59] Patrick Kiely: It’s the duck swimming, the manic activity under the water and everything is serene at the top.

[00:13:04] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, once, once it looks perfect, it doesn’t have to be perfect, but once it looks perfect. So I’ve come with that background. Two event management. And I suppose over the years now, I suppose really since 20 12, 20 13, I’ve done two large McCarthy gatherings in Dun Manway where we had a few hundred people attend both.

I’ve been involved, I’d say two or three years ago with an O’Donovanclan gathering. So I would take over the. I suppose the running order of the day when the event takes place. People would need me to do, mc, I’ll be in the background making sure everything is planned down to a t. I will also ensure publicity and the comms that all of that and the media are there.

I like where it’s a kind of a medium event. I think there’s a market for that in West Cork especially where you’re talking clan gatherings, history events, heritage events that don’t tend to be a huge following. But then I’ve branched off, so we’d have the clans. You had the O’ Donovan clan.

I’m involved with the O Manny clan as well. Of course I have to be I wasn’t going to let get away with that. I have, I do, however, see that as more of a hobby, the o Manny clan that I like to be just in the audience with that and not take too much control, but I do tend to help them out. And then the McCarthy’s, I tend to get associated by default with the McCarthy’s over a number of years.

People ring me up if it’s anything to do with a McCarthy person in West Cork or County Cork or South Kerry. People go, okay, you’ve done these gatherings. What do you know? So I would have known a number of professional historians who can assist with those queries for them also. Then moving from that, then I’ve kind of moved into.

Assisting Irish veterans down in concealed when they had their premises there. So that would be where you would recognize Irish people who might have been in the Army in the UK. They might have been in the Navy in Australia, they might have been in the Marines in America. And where they would’ve made a contribution as an Irish veteran in any conflict globally.

So by accident and default, I kind of worked with those groups. Purely because their descendants were coming back and they were looking for research as to where, you know, somebody who may have been a fighter pilot in the second World War. Where? Where did his family come from in West Cork. So in turn then I’ve worked with the Irish veterans.

I also do a little bit of work from time to time with the OID up in Collins Barracks where I link in with them and if they’re passing through West Cork or whatever, I might give them a little tour. I’m due to go up and give them a talk on my book on the famine. So that’s another group that I work with.

And then obviously recently. Last year I was involved in handling all the media and communications then for the Star Wars teamed event field, the force in Dunmanway, which was hugely successful. And this year then I’m working on the event regarding the famine orphans. So, so there’s a lot going on.

[00:15:59] Patrick Kiely: Do you think that, I suppose there’s scope for more events in West Cork history events in West Cork. Do you think there’s enough of an appreciation of the rich heritage here? As much as we talk about history in Ireland, but is the history of West Cork properly represented?

[00:16:13] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, the history of West Cork, I think Patrick is a little bit, I won’t say undervalued, but I think perhaps underappreciated.

[00:16:21] Patrick Kiely: Okay.

[00:16:21] Michelle O’Mahony: And I think we need to dig a little bit more below the surface. I know in relation to Dunmanway, where I’m from, I’ve been doing a lot of digging in numerous characters, individuals people that have made a huge contribution globally.

Sure. But whose origins back here in West Cork have largely, I suppose, been under the radar and nobody actually knew who they were or that they came from here. I know we’ve discussed you know, on previous conversations, different people. You know everybodys from somebody in the JFK administration to one of America’s famous artists to incredible fighter pilots in the RA,F various people-that their contribution has gone unnoticed to a certain extent

[00:17:05] Patrick Kiely: With the extent that they’ve gone unnoticed with veterans. And you mentioned the veteran activity you do, is that, because I suppose Ireland has a tenuous relationship with the fact that we’re contributing to the armed forces in others countries because of our reputation for neutrality and that being tied in with nationalism, or is there a deeper underlying reason, do you think?

[00:17:23] Michelle O’Mahony: I think some of it I think goes back to our own revolutionary period. Sure. Where I think a lot of people would be free to say that they had family members involved in conflict abroad, be that in America or be that in the UK for example, the REF, the Navy.

Sure. But I think. You can’t really get away from it because I know other families in Ireland would’ve had people involved in the British Navy in the late 18 hundreds and the turn of the, into the 19 hundreds before any of this sort of revolutionary period started, and people involved in the Merchant Navy and it purely was a way of life for them because they liked the sea or they liked the army and they came from a family tradition of that.

And I, Roger

[00:18:03] Patrick Kiely: Casement would be a great example.

[00:18:05] Michelle O’Mahony: So I think it’s been kind of, some people have brushed it onto the carpet, but I think now it’s the time to actually see their contributions for what their contributions were.

[00:18:13] Patrick Kiely: Sure. For sure.

[00:18:13] Michelle O’Mahony: And I think. People don’t need to be afraid so much anymore of what those contributions were.

But even if you talk about Haldon the artist I know Thomas Haldon was a famine orphan, and I suppose I kind of like researching him. He came from man way, he was orphaned and he became one of the foremost painters. Of what’s called American Heart and Homeland, where there’s these sceneries in the 1870s and 1880s in America of sons leaving home.

Also, he was one of the first painters in America to actually paint the freed slaves in a domestic setting in their own domestic scenes. And for that, he’s noted as being extremely famous. But if you look around in Manuel, there’s, he’s not honoured here. And people don’t know it. So I suppose when you dig into all these famous people that come from West Cork, to get back to the first question, their lives tend to be, I suppose, honoured elsewhere, but not necessarily here.

We tend to have one or two characters in each town, but there’s an awful lot more to explore. And I was on an interview with a radio station there. About two years ago, and I was saying what I really think would be lovely was if we had like almost an international museum in West Cork

Where the contributions of all these people on an international scale were highlighted.

Be they in art, be they in the military, be they in the Navy be they in society just that their home area recognizes them. Now some, in the case of some of these people, we might be one or two generations removed. It might have been that their grandfather. Left during the famine or post famine period, but they still have that link.

And I suppose one of the phrases I’ve said on radio, you know, if I’m promoting West Carcass, sometimes I do wonder if West Cork is that cradle of civilization to a certain extent. Because, you know, when you go digging for something, you inevitably do find, you know, if you’re talking these big areas of global history, whether it’s the JFK administration.

If you’re looking at that particular era in time, if you’re looking at the astronauts and you’re looking at science, you know, we have Ellen Hutchins below Skippering. We also would’ve Michael Collins, the astronaut. His grandfather, great-grandfather from the Manway, Eileen Collins, who’s I think is not a relative to Michael Collins, was the first female to pilot the shuttle for NASA and she again, is a descendant from Dunmanway, so.

If you’re talking the whole spectrum of people into science and whatever sector you’re looking for. Most towns would have somebody that will, you know, slot into that position and that role. And West Cork just seems to have it in abundance. Maybe it’s because of the diaspora, maybe it’s because of our rebellious nature down here, but for some reason or other, we do tend to have it.

And you know, I think even students of the leaving Cert going forward, you know, think a little bit outside the box if you’re looking for a case study. You know, if you are interested in gender history, if you’re interested in female history. If you’re in whatever is your area. Try and find a personality that fills that void for you and turn that personality then into your research study topic for the Leaving Cert.

That way you’ll engage more with it, you know, and little things like that are good for people in West Court to know and good for students of history to know as well.

[00:21:30] Patrick Kiely: So I suppose it’s the socioeconomic conditions that bred the diaspora, particularly to the extent that it was in West Cork, given the poverty and with the impact of the famine kind of led to such rich raw materials for you to mine and use your historical skills for.

[00:21:45] Michelle O’Mahony: Like, I suppose I’m primarily a 19th century historian, so the Irish diaspora and the conditions that led up to that and where that diaspora ended up, you know? Some people automatically think, you know, the diaspora just went to America. They forget there’s New Zealand, there’s the conficts, there’s the orphans, there’s Australia, Argentina, and there’s Argentina, there’s South America, there’s Europe.

You know, you can even go back further. We have the wild geese going to France. We have. I know we did the McCarthy gathering. People were laughing at me. I said I was going to get McCarthy Wine from France, and people just thought I was mad, you know? But we didn’t get it because there is a McCarthy Winery just like you see Lynch wineries.

There’s different names and there’s different wineries down there. So that diaspora has been going on. It’s nothing new. It didn’t just start with the famine in that time period in 19th Century Ireland. The diaspora has been there for years and century and millennia probably. But it’s just to tap into it.

Sure. And I think now more than ever, perhaps in the current environment and you know, in socioeconomic times, like we’re in at the moment. People tend to forget maybe a little bit of their history and heritage and maybe you know, that we need to kind of revisit that again. I know in 2013 there was a lot of talk about gatherings and welcoming people back.

Yeah. And people were getting certificates of their Irish heritage. I think now people are kind of, the idea of Irish passports is in the back of people’s mind, but you know. We should also remember that what are we really good at in Ireland and what do we have to offer, which is history, heritage, hospitality, and culture.

And there’s a lot of resources there that can be tapped into. And there is potential for a lot more niche festivals. They don’t have to be the big bells and music festivals. Bantry has the great literary festival. It has its great chamber music festival. We have the West Cork History Festival, but there’s other, you know, areas where we can focus on, you know, personalities from West Cork that were involved in scientific advances.

We can broaden that where we can cater for other people with specific key interests.

[00:23:42] Patrick Kiely: An important shout out.

[00:23:43] Michelle O’Mahony: l So there oads, loads to explore. I could talk all day.

[00:23:45] Patrick Kiely: It’s an important shout out to local politicians and those with looking to fund a cultural exercise that there could be the need for that international museum.

[00:23:53] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, there, there is a need for it. Yeah. You know for sure. Like I often say to people, if, you know, and it would be my dream, so if there’s any millionaires out there who have millions of euro, you know, I would love. To kind of just be involved in setting up one of these international museums based on personalities and their contribution. Because if you have people down in Australia, people in America, you have those flags flying, international flags flying outside an international museum. You will draw tourists. And it’s something that it needs to be done. Now, I know we have Epic as the Immigration Museum in Dublin, but I think we need something down here in the countryside.

[00:24:28] Patrick Kiely: Sure.

[00:24:28] Michelle O’Mahony: You know that museums should not be the preserve of the large, we’ll say cosmopolitan cities. You know, if there’s an unusual museum tucked away down in West Cork. In a small town like Dunmanway you know, that draws footfall into this area and undoubtedly that’s going to spread out into the other surrounding towns.

Dunmanway, centrally located, you’re half an hour from Skibb, Clonakilty, wherever you want to go.

[00:24:54] Patrick Kiely: And some of the best exhibits are in smaller settings. They are, they were smaller settings throughout the casement exhibit in truly was amazing. The. The recent sit stand smoke VR experience that they did in West Cork and they showcase it s smaller events.

That was amazing. But it just, it doesn’t need, as you said, the giant venue for these Exactly.

[00:25:09] Michelle O’Mahony: You don’t need a huge venue. You just need good investment and some good ideas and some key personalities. Can you imagine, just for argument’s sake, if there was something to do with NASA in Manway? Can you imagine the children, the interest in science and STEM learning?

All of those concepts will automatically follow from it if children realize that some of the famous astronauts that they learn about in their history books actually came from West Co in terms of their grandparents and that diaspora International and how it’s all linked. You

[00:25:36] Patrick Kiely: an international and interstellar museum,

[00:25:38] Michelle O’Mahony: An interstellar museum, Patrick.

But even something as simple, you know, like. Children then would be more interested maybe in playing with Lego that had a space shuttle. You know, you have all these spinoffs that will come.

[00:25:49] Patrick Kiely: Yeah.

[00:25:50] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, there’s an element in, if you can build it, people will come, people will travel and West Cork is there to be explored.

Sure. You know, and there’s a lot more to West Cork than just your scenery, your walking trails, and your geology. There’s an awful lot there.

[00:26:05] Patrick Kiely: That’s a powerful hypothesis and delivery known first. I agree as well. I would, I’m from here too. You are. But the, so parking, the, that thread with event management and that whole scope. Then we move to the research angle. And I suppose it’s part and parcel in that you’re dealing with historic you have your events are very historically minded. The ones that you’ve mainly managed with the exception of guided tours with Wookies last June, bank holiday. But the research, I suppose first question is how difficult is it to do the kind of research that you do, given the fact that a lot of Irish historical record met with a broader explosive end during the revolutionary period, and how easy is it to access international sources to buttress the kind of research that you do then?

[00:26:52] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, I suppose it’s twofold. It could be quite easy in the digital era, because a lot of countries have pretty good archives. For example, at the moment I’m working with the famine orphan girls in Australia and tracing their background and actually the Australian resources are really good. So if anybody’s interested in Australian history, it’s really, their archival institutes are really good, you know, and they seem to have, you know.

Documentary evidence that wasn’t obviously like ours, that didn’t go up in flames. So you get a great idea of their life there. Now, their life before they got to Australia is a little bit harder to piece together, but it is doable now. You won’t be able to get. 90% of it, you might get 75% of it in terms of birth deaths and marriages.

You will get baptismal records from various churches. Now when you’re talking the Irish famine period, it’s hit and miss. A lot of priests were under pressure bearing the victims of the famine. And they really didn’t have time to be entering every baptism and death. In their books. So they weren’t keeping accurate records.

So

[00:27:56] Patrick Kiely: Historical parochial records under that. They are well-maintained in certain diocese.

[00:28:00] Michelle O’Mahony:  In certain diocese they were, but I know of a diocese… I know of a parish down in Waterford where. The priest was so overwhelmed, there actually is no entries for a couple of years of the famine. So there’s no entries of baptisms, there’s no entries of marriages, so they’re lost to posterity forever.

They’re never going to be found. Those years pre predate the births, deaths andmarriages that we know, which largely came in that official registration, civil registration started around. Early sixties, kind of 60, 1863/65, and it took about 10 years until the mid 1870s, before they came mainstream.

[00:28:35] Patrick Kiely: Okay.

[00:28:36] Michelle O’Mahony: So from that point of view, it can be a little bit hit and miss, but there’s always something. What I found is there is always some something that can be found. And a record that can be found. International records then in other countries are a little more difficult. You may have to travel to find them.

You may have to go over to gardens, you have to go to Dublin. For other records, but there’s always something to be found. That’s one thing I have noticed. And sometimes I find, even when I tell a client, look, I can’t really find this now for you. I think we’ve hit a brick wall.

More and more records are being digitized all the time, and even private papers are being donated to archival institutes and you never know what you’re going to find. So I always say to clients, if in the course of my research, I come across something that’s pertinent or relevant to your case. Whether it’s a year or two later, I’ll ring you up and say, look, I have discovered something in the course of somebody else’s research.

And when you’re doing a lot of the records in this area in WestRock, you do see a lot of similar names coming up. If people are asking you to research somebody in the famine period, or the 1880s or the 1890s. You will see names coming up on that sheet of, and then years later you’ll kinda go, I’ve seen that before.

You know, so you, you’ll join the dots farther than maybe years later.

[00:29:49] Patrick Kiely: Kind of building on a basis as opposed to starting from scratch.

[00:29:51] Michelle O’Mahony: You’re building on a basis of what you know. And then as I say, with more archives being digitized and more private papers coming into the public domain. Know, that’s constantly a work in progress.

So research can be difficult. It can be downright frustrating at times, but when you do find that nugget, it is incredibly rewarding when you present it to somebody who’s looking for that key point and you are going, well, there it is. Or I’ve found somebody.

[00:30:16] Patrick Kiely: And when you’ve been doing it for years, you’re building on that base as well.

So you’re not starting from scratch in some cases.

[00:30:22] Michelle O’Mahony: Yeah. It’s….but you’re constantly learning.

[00:30:23] Patrick Kiely: Yeah. And you’re also, you’re other people are availing of that learning that you have now. And you spoke about previously in our conversations about serving as a consultant to those who are writing books, a historical consultant, and they’re benefiting from your base of knowledge in terms of how they construct their fiction narrative.

Can you walk us through, what’s that? What’s that like? Do they.. So are they interrogating you or are you providing them with the context to situate their story or how? Okay, so which comes first, chicken or egg?

[00:30:50] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, it is a case of chicken and egg. So basically, usually what happens is somebody will ring me up and go, I have an idea, or I’m halfway through writing a book.

Or it could be they’re writing a book with say, take two examples. They’re writing a book in history and they don’t know where to start. They don’t know how to get a publisher and they’re not quite sure how to write this, and where would they find their research. So I will kind of. Sit down with them or have Zoom a zoom call and kind of decide, right, what do you want to do?

Where do you see this going? Do you see it as a bestseller? Do you see it as hard back paper, back, coffee, table book, image book? Where do you want this to go? Or do you just want to write a story?

[00:31:26] Patrick Kiely: This is almost coaching more than consulting

[00:31:28] Michelle O’Mahony: So it’s kind of coaching and mentoring to get them to understand what, number one, what type of book they want to write.

Number two, are they actually familiar with timeframe. So if somebody wants to write a Victorian, be it a Victorian narrative on the history of women in Victorian, the history of fashion in Victorian Britain or Ireland, you know, whatever the topic is, are they actually familiar with the 19th century?

Are they familiar with the context in which Queen Victoria came to the troll? Do they even know what time period they’re dealing with? Like I’ve had people say, I want to study Victoria, and they’re talking about 17 hundreds. And they’re in the completely wrong time period, and they need to be, you know, in the regency and they’ve got their timelines muddled.

[00:32:10] Patrick Kiely: Yeah.

[00:32:11] Michelle O’Mahony: So you have to be very clear with them that if they are writing a book, that A, it’s going to be authentic and they know their storyline. And then that if you’re writing a fictional book, people that want to write a story, for example, a story based about the Irish famine, or they’re having a love story in a work house, or they’re fictionalizing some event of the famine.

You know, you have to make sure that they know the context of that workouts, you know, that, you know, it would be very hard for somebody to fall in love in the workouts because they’re all segregated.

[00:32:40] Patrick Kiely: Yeah.

[00:32:40] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, if it’s a, if it’s if the wife is over in the women’s dormitories and the man is somewhere else, where do they possibly meet?

Yeah. And it could only have been at a church service on a Sunday or maybe, you know, Christmas dinner. They’d have communal dining rites. Yeah. So there’s different things like that. So you kind of have to know, you know, you kind of, sometimes I think the easiest way to approach it would be to nitpick at it and kind of go, this isn’t historically accurate, that’s not historically accurate.

But I’ll help you, I’ll give you reading material that will kind of set the background context for you. I. I’d fill it in, I’ll do some research and give you the links to sites you need to research from.

[00:33:15] Patrick Kiely: Would it be better if the author would start with that understanding rather than start writing and then have to be nitpick that

[00:33:21] Michelle O’Mahony: Exactly.

So I have one manuscript at the moment that I think is okay because I know the author has a very good grasp of the subject matter. It is fictionalized. But I still need to go through it because it’ll be the one thing somebody might pick up on.

That might have been missed. And it could be something very innocuous.

Could be a date, could be something similar, simple. I know somebody presented me once saying, I’ve got this lovely image from the famine times. And I want to use this as my book.

Cover, and I just looked at it and I could see a telephone wire, electricity wire. And I was like, that’s from 1920s, 1930s.

It’s not the 1820s.

[00:33:55] Patrick Kiely: But Ridley Scott had a newspaper as in Gladiator too. So historical accuracy isn’t all it used to be anymore.

[00:34:00] Michelle O’Mahony: Well, historical accuracy and authenticity or as somebody had a time machine and could see into the future, you know, it’s one or the other. No, I don’t, but for me, I find historical authenticity, you know, is where I help them and then to help them write.

And I find some authors will write and they’ll pre, because they know their subject matter, they will presume that the person reading it knows the background and they’ll just footnote it and I have to tell them no. You might have the source of the footnote, but they don’t. So you have to kind of encourage them to expand more.

[00:34:32] Patrick Kiely: There’s bit more exposition to aid the context.

[00:34:34] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, and kind of frame that storyline a little bit better and give the background and not be afraid to, you know, it’s better to have a huge word count and try and reduce it than to be trying to tell somebody. Your word count is way too low. Like this is a chapter, it’s not a book.

You know, so, so there’s an element of coaching, there’s an element of mentoring, and then sometimes they’ll just say, look, can you do a certain amount of research for me and help me get this across the line? Can you tell me where I can need to go? Or I can pay you to go and do the research for me. So it, it’s very much a case of the service I provide or tailor their bespoke to each person’s or each group’s individual needs.

[00:35:12] Patrick Kiely: Sure. Okay. Still, it’s as you said, it contributes to no two days being the same because you’re approaching different daughters at different points in their process and providing that bespoke service.

[00:35:21] Michelle O’Mahony: Oh, yeah. Like I need a very thick diary to keep me focused because every day is so different that you have to make notes and every person you deal with, no two clients are the same.

Sure. You know, you kind of, I know yesterday I had my book mentoring hat was with somebody in Germany. For two hours and then I had to rush out the door and I had to put on my comms and media hat and start thinking press releases and communications newspapers and press photographers, and that went on for another three or four hours.

[00:35:51] Patrick Kiely: In general, with your, with the what your career and what O History consultant does, is it difficult to change register like that on the flip of a coin? Or is that something that you’ve trained yourself to do as well, or?

[00:36:02] Michelle O’Mahony: I think I’ve trained myself to do it probably over the years, I suppose, from being my undergraduate.

Doing my undergraduate, you know, you could be studying in an archive in the morning.

You then could be tutoring in the history department in the afternoon. Then you could be in the library researching that night, or you could be going to a function where you’re suddenly helping and assisting an academic with a major event.

So you’re constantly switching. Sure. And then I suppose career wise, I had a love of history and I had a love of law and I had a love of teaching. So I’ve done each of those things.

[00:36:35] Patrick Kiely: Sure.

[00:36:36] Michelle O’Mahony: So they’ve all sort of informed what I do so I can switch now, you know, some days it’s hard to switch than others and such is life.

But it’s nice because if you’re getting bogged down. In research for one client at least, you know, on the flip side, you have a meeting later where you know you’re going to actually achieve something or get that press release out, or get the media or help somebody get on the front cover of the Irish examiner.

You know that you have that to kind of balance it out. So. you know, you could say, right, I’ve hit a brick wall, I’m going to leave that, I’m gonna do something positive for the other client now that I have a meeting with later. So it can be difficult, but it’s doable. Sure, okay. I wouldn’t be doing what I do if I didn’t.

[00:37:15] Patrick Kiely: No. Well that’s clear.

[00:37:17] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, if I wasn’t able to do it and do it. But the event ones are good because when you’re having that research. Wall.

And then you see something happen that somebody rings you up and go, oh, you made the newspaper. Oh, we’re mentioned. You know, or, oh, we’ve got, you’ve managed to get us an interview.

That’s really good.

[00:37:33] Patrick Kiely: Celebrate small wins and to build back…build momentum back up again.

[00:37:36] Michelle O’Mahony: It builds momentum, you know, and you don’t get bored then of what you’re doing.

[00:37:39] Patrick Kiely: For sure.

[00:37:40] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, with history, people say, oh, his People often say to me, oh, your history is that boring.

It’s like, not when you do what I do. Some people find, you know, think of history as there’s this big. Book and I need to read it and it’s going to be boring and I’m not gonna be a preferred. So it’s kind of, you know, unlock the past, bring it to life, shed some light on it and see it for what it is and you know, see what people can do about it. You know, if they look at history, they say it does inform the present and you need to learn from historical mistakes maybe.

[00:38:10] Patrick Kiely: You’d hope

[00:38:10] Michelle O’Mahony: so. You’d hope, and I suppose people do need to look back to look forward and bring what they can with them from the past, even if it’s into a museum.

And even if it is just to educate people or showcase the Irish diaspora in very many different ways. Or to help them write that book that they always wanted to do, but they’re not quite sure where to start.

[00:38:33] Patrick Kiely: What’s your future plans?

[00:38:35] Michelle O’Mahony: Future plans to continue doing what I’m doing. And to continue to do it well.

I suppose I would like to take a little bit more, take a little more clients on in relation to history, heritage, communications, and media, you know? Okay. And a little bit more of the event management. Also I’d like to work more with people that have period properties because being a 19th century historian, I like the period properties and I like those old buildings that can tell a story. So working with a client who wants to have an event, whether it’s a Victorian style fashion shoot in an old building to make sure you know, the clothes and everything are authentic of the time period, whether it is.

Even somebody asked me could I give them advice on their wedding stationary because they wanted a Victorian teamed wedding. You know, so there’s different areas.

[00:39:23] Patrick Kiely: Men never brought attention to detail there.

[00:39:24] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, there’s …But you know, there are people out there Yeah. Who just want that old worldly event.

Or if you’re doing a really modern event and you’re doing a book launch, you know, and you don’t know where to start, get in touch. That’s what I do. Sure.

[00:39:40] Patrick Kiely: So the big event coming up the event in May. And you’ve got the orphan event and the unveiling of the monument of the monument. So explain how that all came about and what you hope it’ll do to shine a light on the plight of these orphans in West Cork, but obviously in Manway particularly.

[00:39:59] Michelle O’Mahony: So I suppose it came about two years ago when a woman visited the meme. And she went to the local historical group.

And she said to them, look, my great-great grandmother was a famine orphan. And she left here in the middle of the Irish famine and she was shipped out to Australia as part of the Earl Grey Famine Orphan Assisted Passage scheme.

So this was a scheme whereby it was set up initially by Earl Grey, who was minister for the colonies in the UK

[00:40:26] Patrick Kiely: I feel I’m obliged to ask, is he responsible for the tea as well?

[00:40:29] Michelle O’Mahony: Yes, so, so we have a number of Earls, shall we say, there’s Earl one, Earl two, and Earl three, all Earl Greys as they would be.

And the early one before would’ve been involved in tea. So they would’ve been in salon and they’ve been out gathering their tea leaves and bring it back and marketing it as, yes, Earl Grey tea. And then one of those in the 1840s that Earl, he decided that. He liked actually Melbourne and he had a position in the fledgling administration in Melbourne at the time, and he came back to the UK and he was appointed minister for the colonies and had this notion that there was a huge gender imbalance because of all the convicts that had been shipped out to Australia.

And he wanted to address that issue of gender imbalance. So he came up with the idea, what if we have the Earl Grey assisted immigration scheme whereby we get the famine orphan girls to be shipped out and helped with the population situation in Australia and the colonies, and in 1848 to 1850. That Earl Grey scheme commenced, and many workhouses throughout Ireland decided that they would send famine orphan girls.

So to be a famine orphan at the time, either both parents were deceased or perhaps one parent was deceased, but often….

[00:41:52] Patrick Kiely: Was the end goal explicitly stated,

[00:41:55] Michelle O’Mahony: So did the offer them a better future? So everything was in the better future and….

[00:42:00] Patrick Kiely: It wasn’t framed in population expansion in Australia.

[00:42:03] Michelle O’Mahony: No. Population  expansion was not.  It was probably the main reason behind it all, but it wasn’t the most explicit one that they were told.

Sure. So they were sent out and I. I suppose their journey to Australia was slightly different to the journey of the regular victim of the Irish famine that went to America or elsewhere on what we would call the coffin ships. These ships that went to Australia with these girls were specifically designed with ensuring that nobody died on route to Australia.

[00:42:36] Patrick Kiely: What a novel idea.

[00:42:37] Michelle O’Mahony: You know, because these were their charges that they were paying well to ship out, and this was …the future of the colony depended on them. So before each girl left, they were given a trunk full of new clothes and pet cuts and bonnets. And down in Australia, the bonnet has become synonymous with the famine orphan girls who arrived.

And I’ve had to explain to people that those bons were not something that they would’ve worn here. They would’ve, you know, lived their lives 5, 6, 7 years in rags before they ever went down to Australia. So they thought they were getting new world, new clothes, new wardrobe to arrive. And they also were given nurses and doctors, you know, onboard the ship to ensure that they didn’t get sick on the way.

Which was complete stark contrast to the journey they would’ve had if they were on the regular coffin ship to America, where it wasn’t generally a case of survival of the fittest.

You know, and if you were sick and died, you’re sick and died. And Dunmanway only availed of this scheme once, and it sent out 13 orphan girls,

[00:43:34] Patrick Kiely: what informed it only availing of it once?

[00:43:38] Michelle O’Mahony: It’s just once that the Board of Guardians basically could afford to send them out because they would have to kind of raise money in the area, be it from the poor rates and whatnot. And then there was assisted passage scheme that they got money from. They had guardians or whatever trickled down in time and they were reimbursed, but they just have decided once.

So places like Skibbereen workhouse, Dungarvan in Waterford, other workhouses around Ireland would’ve avail of the scheme on a number of occasions. Dunmanway availed of it once and the minute books state for Dunmanway that 15 girls were selected. But doesn’t give the names. So we have to go to the Australian records then to identify who came from Dunmanway.

So we have 13 identified. The other two, we’re not sure if one may have absconded because the journey would’ve been from Dunmanway to Cork. Cork down to Plymouth and Plymouth to Australia. So one appears to have, you know, gone unnamed along the way.

Another one we think absconded. So we have 13 identified.

13 will be remembered in Dunmanway, but we will be mentioning an unnamed other, you know, for those that we may have missed or that we don’t know their names of. And two of these, there was two O’Mahony girls.  They were both sisters. So where possible the poor law commissioners and Board of Guardians would often try and send two siblings, you know, that they’d be that security for them.

Which was a good idea. So we would’ve had two, I think we had two McCarthy’s. We had two O’Mahonys and two Desmond’s. And the great granddaughter of one of these Desmond girls returned to the local historical society two years ago, and she spoke with members there and they were able to tell her who and where her family came from in Manway, and they brought her to the field where the old family farm would’ve been. And for her, that kind of pinpointed her sense of identity.

Then last year she visited again and she wanted to go deeper, so they called me in and said, right, you know, how can I help?

But she’s like, well, I’d really love to put up a monument in memory of the 14 because. There’s a rock in Williamstown outside Melbourne. Where they all landed and where the ships would pull in. Where these famine offer and girls disembarked and where they are remembered annually, every November and where the Irish diplomats in Australia go and attend this function, and their names are called out. There’s a role call given and there’s a huge following in terms of the social media platforms and Facebook groups surrounding these girls.

[00:46:00] Patrick Kiely: Echoing what you said earlier, celebrated elsewhere, but gone largely unnoticed here.

[00:46:04] Michelle O’Mahony: There’s nothing here. And obviously, I suppose. With my own research in Workhouses, this tied in nicely with what I was familiar with and giving voices and faces to these victims that were just known as inmates. You know, they were never known as residents of a workhouse. There were always inmates. So they were always identified almost in like penal institutions and penal terms and prison-like conditions.

So to give them a voice, I decided this would be really good to get involved. So I told her I would donate my services and I would help to get this monument up and running for her. And as you know, and anybody who does monument in Ireland will know monuments do not come cheaply and they don’t come on a small budget.

So to facilitate that, which come up with some new and novel ideas for the monument. And I suppose your usual monument is large, you know, kind of sculpted monuments. You’re talking 20,000, 30,000. You know, somebody who wants to commemorate a family member doesn’t have that type of money. Right. It’s as simple as that.

And any historical group that’s out there, think outside the box. You can’t commemorate people. It doesn’t have to be just a simple sign, you know? History doesn’t have to be just that brass plate on a wall. You can go beyond that and you can get creative with ways, you know, there’s no kind of history monument set in stone.

We’ll say that you have to replicate intended, no pun intended, but you can set it in another medium. Sure. So for her, I kind of tapped into what would you like? Something from Ireland, something that I remember her saying something that embodies this place and what, that’s what she was doing this place.

And I said, you mean the stones and the walls and the rooms of demand were? And she goes, yeah, how do we bring that into something so it’s not going to be like a MaRous fab? So then I had the connection with Mommy head studios and I just rang them and said, right, I have a brief for you. Do you think you can work with me on this?

Can we create a monument? What she wants. Can we replicate the stones? So we have had stones digitally scanned. So the image and the imprint of these stones will be on an actual monument.

That will be moulded. And there’s a few other intricacies added as well. And we’ll have a representation of some of the orphan girls in rags on it.

And that’s about as much as I’m going to say for now. But the Irish ambassador out in Canberra, he’s aware of this happening. The Australian embassy in Dublin are aware of it, and we’re hoping for that diplomatic presence to come as well. So we will have that unveiling. And then I decided, you know what, that’s a monument and it’s her contribution to her heritage in west Cork in Manway, but it doesn’t, it tells a story, but how do we tell future generations why that monument is there? So I applied for funding then from Cork County Council as a Heritage grant to put up a sign that will actually be a timeline documenting their departure, what was the Earl Grey scheme and what happened to them when they arrived.

And actually putting one section where all their names are listed. So I worked then with the friends of Manway Hospital Group to secure funding for that. That sign has, I finished that last week. So that sign and that timeline documenting the voyage, their new land, and we even have one or two black and white photographs of some of them, you know, in later years with their children and their descendants.

Them there. So we have both the interpretive sign and we have a monument then that is put in place there by one of their descendants. So going forward, it’s great, you know, and we’re lucky that we’ve had the support of the local hospital and the HSC and the director of nursing there to come on board because they are conscious.

You know, that there’s a community hospital, Linda Manway, that now has about 25, 26. I’m not quite sure how many residents that are there. But when these girls left, that actual compound, according to the minute books, the week they left had 804 inmates. You know, and when you kind of go the HSE complex there now had 800 people.

You know, it, it really just beggars belief. And you wonder, you then start wondering, well, when these people died during the famine, you know, was there bones and surrounding fields? What’s there? Where did all of this come from? And a lot of people now are starting to think about it, and I think they realize it’s nice to give that sense of, you know, no, that there was 14 or 13 girls from the manway contributed.

You know, to populating Australia in very simple terms. And as this descendant said to me, it’s estimated down in Australia that one in 10 people in Australia that their heritage can be attributed now to these girls. From Ireland. So it’s a huge story and I feel it’s nice now to go full circle to have a monument here, knowing that every November they’re honoured there.

And you know, as I said at the start of this, a lot of people and their contributions has you know, been extolled elsewhere, but not at home. And I think maybe, you know, going forward, Irish tourism needs to maybe look again at this whole gathering idea and the diaspora but not in a way that they’re making it, but think very clearly about how our….

[00:51:10] Patrick Kiely: It’s evidence-based. Yes. It’s a, it’s an evidence-based transcontinental echo to an extent. As you said, it’s called to attention what’s being done elsewhere.

[00:51:18] Michelle O’Mahony: What’s being done elsewhere, and how our people are recognized elsewhere, but they’re not necessarily recognized at home. Now, I know people will say, watching this will say there’s loads of people recognized at home, but for everyone that’s recognized at home, there’s probably 10, 20, 30, 40 more that have made a huge, significant contribution. And that’s just not getting above the parapet at the moment and I like to take on board those cases.

[00:51:40] Patrick Kiely: Solid plan, solid goal for the future. Suppose we ask this of a lot of our podcasts to the conclusion is With your history of… with your history of history, but with your history as a history consultant and with your diverse skillset.

For someone looking to do something similar or someone to work in this space, what piece of advice would you give them?

[00:52:00] Michelle O’Mahony: It would be something similar to what? A client that I had to write a press release for, said, know your craft, do your research, put in hours and hours of experience, whether that would be like me volunteering with groups volunteering for as an undergraduate to assist in conferences where you get that behind the scenes, I suppose knowledge and where you observe and when you do an honest. He’s like this client said, when you do an honest $10,000 learning, no. Whether that’s reading or observing or attending conferences and just taking it all in, that’s where you learn.

[00:52:42] Patrick Kiely: That’s a very specific time allocation. The time allocation to a PhD as well.

[00:52:47] Michelle O’Mahony: Exactly. So now you’ve said it, so you know, it’s probably the same time it would take to do a PhD and it does take years. So observation is one.

But you must have a love for it and you must be willing to kind of do the research, put pen to paper, there’s lots of sides to it.

And then there’s the fun days, you know, with social media and putting the videos together in the field trips and bringing it all together. And then there’s some downsides to it as well when you have to do some family trees. Like I’ve had to search for relatives of children from Besborrough you know, and that side of things can be quite sensitive and difficult.

But then you get the good days when you find the long last family and the family’s reunite and suddenly it is happy families.

[00:53:31] Patrick Kiely: Sure.

[00:53:31] Michelle O’Mahony: So there’s good days to it. There’s lots of sides to it that are difficult. But in the main, no two days are the same. And you are answering questions for people and you are helping people find answers.

[00:53:44] Patrick Kiely: That’s good. Thanks very much for your time, Michelle. Good luck and thank you very much. Take care.